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- 【征集】西西河的经济学，及清流措施，需要主动参与者，『稷下学宫』新认证方式，24年网站打算和努力目标
主题：【原创】战俘！ 战俘！ -- 黄河故人
家园 捉虫 提到战俘，总是离不开苏联和德国。前者抓了很多个国家的战俘，然后自己再去差不多同样多的国家去当战俘；后者产生了到目前为止最大数量的战俘，之后也抓了差不多历史上第二大数量的战俘。苏德的位置反了吧？
家园 二战结束后运到美国的德国战俘也很惨的 艾森豪威尔从心里不想善待德俘，自创了一个非战俘的名称，然后就明目张胆地虐待。大部分德俘是在45年春末夏初投降的，运到美国中西部，大冬天猴冷猴冷的，根本不给多的被服，战俘们就是投降时的单装，有人幸运点有条毯子。有很多战俘还没房子住，就是帐篷，天寒地冻的也没工具，用手在地上挖坑钻进去防寒。
以上是若干年前下班路上听NPR新书介绍采访作者记忆下来片段，后来也读到过几次说艾克虐待德国人的文字，但印象深的还是收音机里说德国人用手挖坑的可怜样。
艾克这个人，像雷锋一样（宣传里的，非真人雷锋）爱憎分明，五十年代亚非殖民地纷纷独立，其实不光是殖民宗主国战后国力虚弱的原因，美国的支持也起了很大作用。
家园 艾森豪威尔自己是德裔，怎么对德国战俘还这么不好？ 若是讨厌作战的德国军人，倒也有情可原；对于放下武器的战俘，还如此憎恶，到底处于什么原因呢？
家园 有可能是艾克亲自巡视了死亡营的结果 看到过艾克领着一群官兵巡视刚解放的死亡营的照片。这伙美军官兵一个个面色凝重，因为面对着摞成一座座小山，还没来得及焚化的皮包骨的死囚，以及同样不成人形的幸存者们。
艾克命令附近德国村镇的平民来列队参观，据说有老乡绅回家之后崩溃自尽的。德国平民尚且如此，受了刺激以后的艾克对于德军军人的报复似乎就好理解了，他的德裔出身大概反而加深了他的憎恶感。
东线的战争中德军的战争罪行，国防军与武装党卫军都有份，不仅仅是党卫军集中营分队，而且彻底突破了现代人道德观念的底线。这个事儿曼帅等老家伙们事后拼命给国防军洗刷，数十年后，我看历史频道采访老兵，居然有人自诩：俺们是WAFFEN SS,没干过缺德事儿。这些个说辞，现在可能能够蒙不少人，在当年全不管用。艾克这样的能见到真实情报，又有亲自巡视经历，就更忽悠不动了。
家园 Reference -- Ike and camps 随手找了找，发觉我所记得的大致上都对得上。有关大屠杀的事儿，早几年战争还激烈进行之时，就有侥幸逃生者揭露，但是少有人相信。纽约时报甚至把那些“故事”放在20，30多版之后不引人注目的角落，明显是存疑的意思。
艾克这个让大家都来看，都来做证人的想法确实是高招。
Ike and the Death Camps
As Supreme Commander of the Allied Expeditionary Forces in World War II, General Eisenhower had been given information about the Nazi concentration camp system well before he led the invasion to liberate Western Europe (June, 1944). Reports on the massive genocide inflicted on Jews, Gypsies, political prisoners, homosexuals, dissidents, and other groups by the Schutzstaffel (SS) had been circulated among all the Allied leaders. Very few of the Allied commanders, however, had an accurate conception of what is now known to the world as the Holocaust until their troops began to encounter the death camps as they marched into Western Germany.
Ike visits the concentration camp at Ohrdruf with Generals Bradley and Patton
On April 4, 1945, elements of the United States Army’s 89th Infantry Division and the 4th Armored Division captured the Ohrdruf concentration camp outside the town of Gotha in south central Germany. Although the Americans didn’t know it at the time, Ohrdruf was one of several sub-camps serving the Buchenwald extermination camp, which was close to the city of Weimar several miles north of Gotha. Ohrdruf was a holding facility for over 11,000 prisoners on their way to the gas chambers and crematoria at Buchenwald. A few days before the Americans arrived to liberate Ohrdruf, the SS guards had assembled all of the inmates who could walk and marched them off to Buchenwald. They left in the sub-camp more than a thousand bodies of prisoners who had died of bullet wounds, starvation, abuse, and disease. The scene was an indescribable horror even to the combat-hardened troops who captured the camp. Bodies were piled throughout the camp. There was evidence everywhere of systematic butchery. Many of the mounds of dead bodies were still smoldering from failed attempts by the departing SS guards to burn them. The stench was horrible.
When General Eisenhower learned about the camp, he immediately arranged to meet Generals Bradley and Patton at Ohrdruf on the morning of April 12th. By that time, Buchenwald itself had been captured. Consequently, Ike decided to extend the group’s visit to include a tour of the Buchenwald extermination camp the next day. Eisenhower also ordered every American soldier in the area who was not on the front lines to visit Ohrdruf and Buchenwald. He wanted them to see for themselves what they were fighting against.
During the camp inspections with his top commanders Eisenhower said that the atrocities were “beyond the American mind to comprehend.” He ordered that every citizen of the town of Gotha personally tour the camp and, after having done so, the mayor and his wife went home and hanged themselves. Later on Ike wrote to Mamie, “I never dreamed that such cruelty, bestiality, and savagery could really exist in this world.” He cabled General Marshall to suggest that he come to Germany and see these camps for himself. He encouraged Marshall to bring Congressmen and journalists with him. It would be many months before the world would know the full scope of the Holocaust — many months before they knew that the Nazi murder apparatus that was being discovered at Buchenwald and dozens of other death camps had slaughtered millions of innocent people.
General Eisenhower understood that many people would be unable to comprehend the full scope of this horror. He also understood that any human deeds that were so utterly evil might eventually be challenged or even denied as being literally unbelievable. For these reasons he ordered that all the civilian news media and military combat camera units be required to visit the camps and record their observations in print, pictures and film. As he explained to General Marshall, “I made the visit deliberately, in order to be in a position to give first-hand evidence of these things if ever, in the future, there develops a tendency to charge these allegations merely to ‘propaganda.’”
His prediction proved correct. When some groups, even today, attempt to deny that the Holocaust ever happened they are must confront the massive official record, including both written evidence and thousands of pictures, that Eisenhower ordered to be assembled when he saw what the Nazis had done.
Dwight D. Eisenhower Memorial Commission, Washington, DC, 2004
通宝推：废话多多,
家园 没准回德国度假让人扪过
家园 日本战俘在苏联也没好哪儿去 高级军官带了不少细软，可惜很快就变无产阶级了，直接动手的多是苏联大妈，苏军自己不动手的。
有张照片，是日浮在用半口锅煮饭。
家园 怀疑苏联大妈的说法 苏军军纪世界上绝对是倒数的，特别是对战俘。
家园 这两天在看富士台的《我家的历史》 回忆日本战后20年历史的，有点像日本版《阿甘正传》
那里面说日本战俘被苏联人改造得相当好，一脑子共产主义思想，回来之后很多成了日本左派。
从这点看苏联人在日本战俘眼里军纪应该不差
家园 军纪是战斗力的重要部分 我一直不相信一支军纪烂到某些人所说的程度的军队，具备横扫半个欧洲，打下柏林的战斗力。
家园 再想想小日本：差点拿下半个太平洋 同样的例子还有曾国藩的湘军。在很多带兵者看来，军纪最重要的是对内保持一致。而对外的烧杀奸淫某种程度上是维系士气的有力工具。现在，破城之后大索三天的军队不多见不是有人转了性，而是现在传媒发达，无法一手遮天。就拿美军来说，很多二战名将的回忆录中都有涉及士兵违反军纪的内容（强奸、抢劫、盗窃或是性骚扰），但其处理结果却是清一色的护短。上行下效，这军纪如何好得了？
家园 蒙古烧杀抢掠的本事更大:他们拿下了整个欧洲 苏军的军纪未必是最差的，但肯定是比较差的。从他们在东北的作为就看得出来。包括如今俄军在车臣，记得那个奸杀少女的团长吗？当然，在这一点上美国人也不差，先奸后杀不说，来了人家满门还要诬蔑其是反美武装份子。可美国人好歹是在别国，车臣至少在俄国人说来算俄罗斯的。