西西河

主题:【原创】揭穿一个流传已久的谎话帖,关于美国持枪自由 -- zhang11

共:💬89 🌺104 新:
分页树展主题 · 全看首页 上页
/ 6
下页 末页
            • 家园 古代也一样,皇家军队的铁甲马军哪是民间大刀长矛能对抗的

              但是没有法院搜查令,警察上门强行拆迁还是要顾忌一下住户手中的枪。而且民愤极大的靠法律或国家中的官官相护而为所欲为的人,中国人的途经是上访,那么在民不畏死的人眼中看来,这样的人早晚会被民间人收拾。所谓老百姓心中那杆秤,不光是用来拥戴青天的,还有为民除害的一面。

              许多所谓反抗暴政的概念与坦克核武器是扯不上关系的,人在做,天在看。只不过这个天是手握核武器强权那个天,还是个人心中那块天。人和人差的这一点,几千年下来,国家与国家差的可就不止这一点了。

          • 家园 你的理解是对的

            拥枪确实与对抗暴政有关。

            我也没说楼主的帖子是谎言,谎言是有主观目的瞎话,光是理解错误不是谎言。

    • 家园 持枪就能反抗暴政本来就是笑话。

      持枪就能反抗暴政本来就是笑话。在正规军队的F22,导弹,航母和坦克面前,没有组织和训练的平民手里的那些枪支比菜刀强不了多少。

      美国不禁枪主要还是历史原因。早年美国地广人稀,白人又在跟印第安人抢地盘,没枪几乎就没活路。大多数家庭有枪造成了反对禁枪的一派势力强大,所以想禁也禁不了。

    • 家园 你的资料没有查全

      不知道你看的是不是我以前写的帖子。其实最高法院已经对第二修正案给出了最终解释:DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA ET AL. v. HELLER

      这里最高法院法官Scalia逐字解释了宪法第二修正案。

      首先由于宪法是为了建立联邦政府而写的,所以在宪法的用词中State和people的地位很相似,都是和联邦政府对立的,例如第10修正案“The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”--所有权力,只要没有被宪法赋予美国(联邦政府)并禁止各州拥有,都属于各州或人民

      后来Scalia还进一步解释“the word ‘state’ is used in various senses [and in] its most enlarged sense, it means the people composing a particular nation or community...the phrase “security of a free state” and close variations seem to have been terms of art in 18th-century political discourse, meaning a “‘free country’” or free polity”(第27页)--State有几层意思,它也可以指组成一个国家或社区的人民的总称...“free state”在18世纪的政治语言里是“自由的国家”或“自由的社会”

      所以不能因为第二修正案的第一段提到State就认为那是和人民--people--对立的。(你要去打我的英语老师请便,其实你更应该去打Scalia的英语老师

      再回到这个修正案。它分成两部份:(1)Prefatory clause “A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state”,和(2)Operative clause “the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringe”

      Scalia法官认为“a prefatory clause does not limit or expand the scope of the operative clause”(第4页),即prefatory clause不增加或减少operative clause的适用范围,也就是说这个修正案为了赋予人民持枪权力给出的理由是为了民兵,但是这不能被理解为持枪权力的唯一理由是为了民兵。他后来还解释不论是“keep arms”或“bear arms”都和在民兵中服役无关(第9页到第18页,他给了很多解释,我就不翻译了)。

      Scalia从正面证实了你所称的“谎言”:the threat that the new Federal Government would destroy the citizens’ militia by taking away their arms was the reason that right—unlike some other English rights—was codified in a written Constitution(第29页)联邦政府把人民缴械以解散他们的民兵组织(这样的)威胁是这个权力(即持枪权)被写入宪法的原因

      如果你有兴趣读下去的话,Scalia用了几十页的篇幅回顾了从独立战争以来对持枪权的解释和争论,并解释了为什么华盛顿的禁枪法违宪。最终结论是持枪权保护的是人民的自卫权力,不只是为了民兵。


      本帖一共被 1 帖 引用 (帖内工具实现)
      • 家园 看到这个我前面不用写了

        鲜花已经成功送出,可通过工具取消

        提示:此次送花为此次送花为【有效送花赞扬,涨乐善、声望】。

      • 家园 顺便提一句

        其实最高法院已经对第二修正案给出了最终解释

        最好不要说是“最终解释”,可以说“最新解释”。解释不是法律,以后是可以改变的。

        • 家园 我说“最终”的意思是最高法院的解释不能被上诉

          我不知道是否有在不改变法律的情况下最高法院的法官改变以前的最高法院法官裁决的例子。从18世纪到现在这是第一次由最高法院对第二修正案做出解释,我觉得除非国会修改宪法,这个解释被改变的概率非常小。

          • 家园 例子

            我不知道是否有在不改变法律的情况下最高法院的法官改变以前的最高法院法官裁决的例子

            最高法院的裁决不可上诉,所以以前的裁决被推翻是通过新的类似案例的裁决实现的。相信这是常识。最近一例请见

            Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission

            The decision completely overruled Austin v. Michigan Chamber of Commerce (1990) and partially overruled McConnell v. Federal Election Commission (2003).[4]

            Austin v. Michigan Chamber of Commerce, 494 U.S. 652 (1990), was a case in which the Supreme Court of the United States held the Michigan Campaign Finance act which prohibited corporations from using treasury money to support or oppose candidates in elections did not violate the First and Fourteenth Amendments.

            McConnell v. Federal Election Commission, 540 U.S. 93 (2003)[1], is a case in which the United States Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of most of the Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act of 2002, often referred to as the McCain–Feingold Act.

            • 例子
              家园 看来我确实不该用“最终”这个词
          • 家园 我想你记错了:这不是第一次由最高法院对第二修正案做出解释

            你说

            从18世纪到现在这是第一次由最高法院对第二修正案做出解释

            不是这样,至少1875, 1886, 1939各有一次最高法院对第二修正案的解释。见Firearm case law in the United State

            Interpreting the Second Amendment

            * United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U.S. 542 (1875) - A post Civil War era case relating to the Ku Klux Klan depriving freed slaves basic rights such as freedom of assembly and to bear arms. The court ruled the First and Second Amendments "was not intended to limit the powers of the State governments in respect to their own citizens" and "has no other effect than to restrict the powers of the national government," respectively. In summary, it ruled the federal government could not file charges against citizens in federal court regarding violations of other citizens' constitutional rights. It was up to the states to protect the fundamental rights of its citizens when their rights were abridged by other citizens.

            * Presser v. Illinois, 116 U.S. 252 (1886) - One of only two post-Civil War 19th Century U.S. Supreme Court cases to address the Second amendment, the sole other one being the above-mentioned United States v. Cruikshank. This second post-Civil War era case related to the meaning of the Second Amendment rights relating to militias and individuals. The court ruled the Second Amendment right was a right of individuals, not militias, and was not a right to form or belong to a militia, but related to an individual right to bear arms for the good of the United States, who could serve as members of a militia upon being called up by the Government in time of collective need. In essence, it declared, although individuals have the right to keep and bear arms, a state law prohibiting common citizens from forming personal military organizations, and drilling or parading, is still constitutional because prohibiting such personal military formations and parades does not limit a personal right to keep and bear arms:

            "We think it clear that there are no sections under consideration, which only forbid bodies of men to associate together as military organizations, or to drill or parade with arms in cities and towns unless authorized by law, do not infringe the right of the people to keep and bear arms."

            The Court also noted that the Second Amendment only restrained the federal government from regulating gun ownership, not the individual states:

            "The second amendment declares that it shall not be infringed, but this, as has been seen, means no more than that it shall not be infringed by congress. This is one of the amendments that has no other effect than to restrict the powers of the national government, leaving the people to look for their protection against any violation by their fellow-citizens of the rights it recognizes to what is called in City of New York v. Miln, 11 Pet. [116 U.S. 252, 102] 139, the 'powers which relate to merely municipal legislation, or what was perhaps more properly called internal police,' 'not surrendered or restrained' by the constitution of the United States."

            * United States v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174 (1939) - The court stated in part:

            "In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a 'shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length' at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense... The signification attributed to the term Militia appears from the debates in the Convention, the history and legislation of Colonies and States, and the writings of approved commentators. These show plainly enough that the Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. 'A body of citizens enrolled for military discipline.' And further, that ordinarily when called for service these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time."'

            * District of Columbia v. Heller - The Supreme Court affirmed the decision of the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit, by a vote of 5-4, holding:

            "The Second Amendment guarantees an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home. United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit affirmed."[1]

            • 家园 谢谢,不过前几个好像不能算完全的解释

              United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U.S. 542 (1875)说的是宪法只在对联邦政府制约时有效,当3K党不允许获得自由的奴隶拥有枪支的时候因为联邦政府不是其中的一方,所以宪法不适用。这是州政府的管辖范围。

              Presser v. Illinois, 116 U.S. 252 (1886)说的是拥有枪支的权力不意味着公民有成立任何军事组织的权力。这还是个第二修正案适用性问题,对枪支权本身没有详细解释。

              United States v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174 (1939)说的是联邦政府是否有权管制(不是禁止)某种枪支。最高法院的裁决是管制枪支不违反宪法。

              我觉得2008年那个案子是第一次对拥枪权本身作出的解释。

              我不知道District of Columbia v. Heller是不是在没有新的法律的情况下改变的以往最高法院的决定,等有时间了再看一下。

              • 家园 这次也不是完全的解释

                最高法院的文件自己说了:“。。。one should not expect it to clarify the entire field.

                BTW,这次判决的核心是“The core holding in D.C. v. Heller is that the Second Amendment is an individual right intimately tied to the natural right of self-defense.”与政治没多大关系。

      • 家园 【讨论】【求助】谢谢资料

        但是我觉得光看解释为什么没有对于宪法文中,作为持枪的目的-‘security' 进行说明?这个'security' 是谁的‘security' ? 如果按解释,是’free state' or 'free policy' 的security。那么理解极端一点就是,反抗违宪的‘暴政’就是‘不违宪’?

        • 家园 是的

          他说的就是是free state或free polity的security。

          独立宣言的前几句话就是:We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

          即每一个人都有与生俱来的生命、自由和追求幸福的权力。(人民)组成政府并授权给它的目的是为了保护人民的这些权力。当一个政府威胁到了这个目的,人民有权去改变或解散它,建立一个新的政府,并重组它的权力,使它能够保护人民的安全和幸福

          再看Scalia在第29页上的解释:the threat that the new Federal Government would destroy the citizens’ militia by taking away their arms was the reason that right—unlike some other English rights—was codified in a written Constitution(第29页)联邦政府把人民缴械以解散他们的民兵组织(这样的)威胁是这个权力(即持枪权)被写入宪法的原因

          这里的主语是联邦政府,所以第二修正案的目的就是为了防止联邦政府通过缴械来解散民兵组织(美国的“民兵”和中国不一样,中国的民兵是由政府组织、武装、指挥的,但是美国的民兵则是由民间自发的,和政府没有任何关系)。Scalia在最后几十页里也给了英国国王利用支持他的民兵组织把反对他的民兵组织缴械的例子,并指出第二修正案就是要防止这样的情况在美国发生。

          所以第二修正案的意义就是在法律上保护了独立宣言里所说的人民改变或推翻危险政府的权力。你说的“反抗违宪的‘暴政’就是‘不违宪’”是正确理解,不是极端。


          本帖一共被 2 帖 引用 (帖内工具实现)
分页树展主题 · 全看首页 上页
/ 6
下页 末页


有趣有益,互惠互利;开阔视野,博采众长。
虚拟的网络,真实的人。天南地北客,相逢皆朋友

Copyright © cchere 西西河